I'm sorry, but the only thing I can answer to this is that it is obviously completely wrong.

Now let me tell you my opinion :
- you come on this support forum and you start complaining...

I'm very sorry but this is not the way it's done! You could at least have a tiny bit of courtesy, a lot of the problems you have are similar to the ones other people had, and they got them solved. A lot of things you think of as flaws are part of the Slackware heritage, and are rather a quality than a disadvantage. At least, that is how we feel about it. Feel free to disagree, but don't start flaming.

JP

Calm down, guys.

Sorry to add to the list of things people want....but I back the idea of encrypted partitions. I would really like to have an encrypted filesystem which is bootable with the right password/a USB disk.

I know people have setups whereby they can boot an encrypted system with a USB portable disk if its present at the time.

This genuinely would appeal to me, a lot Maybe if I can get my current Zenwalk install to do it, I'll see about writing a package...

Love you JP 

I already prepaired packages for encryption and I need some testers!

Just grab device-mapper and cryptsetup-luks from

http://users.zenwalk.org/user-accounts/ ... 6-46.1.tgz
http://users.zenwalk.org/user-accounts/ ... 6-46.1.tgz

Then feel free to post any feedback and testing report on this thread:

http://support.zenwalk.org/index.php/topic,5951.0.html

My response may end up getting me banned as well, but not all of the brjoon1021's post was FUD.

He did have a problem with audio and was directed to a thread in which another user also had no audio; however, that user's problem was never resolved, at least not at the time that brjoon1021 was directed to it. I know because I went to the same thread after brjoon1021 was directed to it. When I read it, that poster had not solved his problem (still hasn't as far as I can tell).

Yes, there were plenty of suggestions of things to try, but it doesn't look as if any of them worked. Now, before I too am banned for perhaps being too critical (which is how brjoon1021's banning reads to me), let me say that I have used Zenwalk off and on for several versions now. There are plenty of things to like about, some perhaps not to like, and others that may not make Zenwalk attractive to potential new users.

For me, one of the latter is the installer. Yes, it works for most people perfectly fine. My criticism is more on an aesthetic one. Like it or not, most people want an OS that looks polished in addition to doing what it is supposed to do. I'm afraid the current installer does not have that polished look. Now, this is only my opinion, and I am in the minority as I have seen from other posts on the subject. I've been on the losing end before and expect I'll be there again.

Be that as it may, it seems to me that most people who use Windows, Macs, or Linux want it to work, but they do not want to have to learn a lot of new commands. To them (and to me, even though I can use the command line), the computer is a tool, not an endless time sinkhole.

Not everyone has the time or the energy to get too deeply into the nuts and bolts of their computer or OS, even if they want to. Does that mean they should be excluded from using Linux or be reduced to using a bloated distribution with too many choices and too many required elements to install? Not to my way of thinking.

And, with all apologies to zenwalkuser, not every Linux user wants to become an intermediate or advanced user. They simply want to learn/know enough to do their work; they don't necessarily hope to become a coder or programmer. Concerning Zenwalkuser's concern that Zenwalk could become "dumbed-down" to the point advanced users won't use it anymore, if he's really concerned about advanced users perhaps he should advocate an advanced installation option that allows choices of packages.

What made Zenwalk a good choice for me was not the fact it evolved from Slackware or even the fact that it's only 420 meg or so. The fact that it fits on a single CD is big plus, but for me, the biggest attraction is that it doesn't require a user to install KDE or Gnome. The biggest drawback, to me, is the apparent fact that upgrading seems to require a complete reinstall. Even if that is not the case, that is the impression a casual visitor to the site might get from reading some of the upgrading threads.

Now these are only one person's opinions, albeit a person who uses Zenwalk and nothing else at home, and they may not be shared or even welcomed. However, I suspect that as Zenwalk continues to grow in popularity, if it continues to grow in popularity, these thypes of thoughts may be voiced more and more.

My apologies for the length of this post. I just felt I had a lot to say, although others may not agree.

There is nothing wrong with criticism as long as it is constructive & your post is a good example in that sense. You are pointing things out in a clear & nonetheless tactful way. Chances are that some of your points will be heard & acted about... (maybe  )

In the case of brjoon1021, it reminded me very much in its tone, of the couple disgruntled posters in DW who started this whole post in the beginning. There is nothing constructive about it. They maybe right about a couple things but they are so opinionated & spiteful that no one who works for free, out of a good heart will ever feel like lifting up a finger about their plea.

Sure we may be tempted to be 'popular' & attract new user & all... but not the kind who throws a tantrum whenever he can't get a snap answer to his woes. I understand people coming from Windows maybe used to that since they paid dearly for their OS & they expect that after paying so much for it, it should just work so they are probably in the habit of abusing hotline people...

But here it should not be so... So these new users will have to change gear... Zenwalk is free & I'll repeat here what I wrote on DW's comments: it is put up by volunteers out of passion & the pure goodness of their heart & I applaud a project leader like JP who does not hesitate to ban people who show so little appreciation for all these volunteer's hard work.

Yes, we do need constructive criticism... of course, Zenwalk is not perfect & has plenty of flaws... sure, we can do much better... but that is just no excuse for spiteful, demeaning & pushy comments of any nature.

Polishing the installer does not improve it, it may just slow it down and add potential new bugs to an already well working (and tested) installer.
Without adding new features it is not valuable.



So what?
If you want to drive a car you first have to learn about traffic rules (otherwise it ends up in chaos and would be dangerous for you and others),
if you want to play a musical instrument you have to learn HOW to play it,
if you want to cook you must read some recipes first to get an idea of how to prepaire a well tasting meal...
So why on earth some people thinking, installing an operating system and using it does not requires them to learn about basic things how things working!?

Once they have learned the basic things and get used to it, they will have no problems to use the system for whatever they want (and the system will do what they want).

If one really seriously tried out CLI, I am sure he/she will revise his/her opinion about it and find out that CLI is not bad at all, but is the most effective way to get things done and this will work on every distri, so once one has learned it one is no longer depending on the configuration tools of one specific distri but can cope with every distri.


Then ZW maybe not the right distribution for them. There are plenty of distris for noobs out there one can try. ZW however should not give up it's ideals just to get more attractive for newbies (no offense!).
Remember ZW is based on Slackware which is know as a distribution for experienced users.
ZW is a distribution which is suiteable for both experts AND newbies! This is something that makes ZW standing out of other distris which are concentrate eighter primary on noobs or primary on experts...


That's not true, you can upgrading ZW via netpkg, so it does not require a reinstall. The only case where a reinstall was recommended was when switching from ZW 3.0 to 4.0 and this was because of some major changes e.g. in Xorg (such things also may difficult in other distris as well).

Prefer the ncurses installer and hate (that's right hate) anaconda.

Sometimes user forums get it wrong and maybe in this case we all did but this is one of the most active and helpful around.  The developers are available to help every day and there are always plenty of users willing to help out.  Sometimes the bad attitude of posters comes through in their post and people react to that.

Recently some other distro's have run the acx111 card and the synaptics touchpad properly out of the box so they could be considered ahead on usability for my machine.  They have all had other issues which have annoyed me more than installing a couple of drivers.  Never had any issues with audio so can't comment on that issue.

I have also tried many dozens of distro's and always have four at any one time.
All I can say is I prefer Zenwalk to other distro's and it has been my default since I discovered it in the Minislack days. 

Thanks team.

I was dealing with perception, and like it or not, perception often translates into reality. If people perceive a distribution as unpolished, it is - at least in the court of popular opinion. If that doesn't matter to you, then fine.



I'm sorry, but the auto analogy has never worked for me. Computers are more like appliances to most users. Do you have to know how to repair a toaster or refrigerator to be able to use it? For that matter, do you have to know the inner workings of an automobile to be able to drive? No! Is is nice to know those things? Probably, but not everyone has the time, tendency, or apitude to do so.



I don't necessarily have an argument with this. I just think we may disagree on what constitutes "the basic things."



Perhaps. I have and do use CLI on occasion, but I don't like it that much. The commands are not always the same from distribution to distribution, and they often seem cryptic to me. I'm not sure how learning these commands is easier than using a GUI tool, but I guess that's just me.



Yes, and nearly all of them install KDE or Gnome. I have yet to see a newcomer-oriented distribution that fits on one CD, certainly not one that uses something smaller than KDE or Gnome. If there is such a distribution, I am prepared to be wrong.



If you look back at my original post, I was also talking about the impression that a complete reinstall was needed to upgrade to one of the last few versions. That was certainly how things read to me based on several posts I saw. It is also the main reason I have not upgraded from 3.0, even though I wanted to. For me, not everything works out of the box when I install Zenwalk; it takes a little more work after installation. As a result, I have not yet changed it. I should upgrade, but I have not yet done so.

You mean "attitude" not aptitude (which is a Debian tool btw)
Back2 topic, I think the car thing is quite good example, because as you said, you don't need to know about the inner workings, e.g. engine, but at least you should know traffic rules and how to navigate.
Same for such complex systems like operating systems, you don't need to be a programmer but you should learn how to get things done and which configs to modify in order to get your system behaving as you want.
Everything you are doing first time requires you to learn about. Imagine this as something you need to know to be able to control your system. 
BTW. toasters and refrigerators are not a good example since these thing are quite simple items compaired to such complex things like computers and operating systems.
Believe it or not, Gnu/Linux is focusing on a more technical aspect and it's on you how deep you want to get into, but don't blame the distribution for things you could have learned to help yourself out.




You maybe haven't tried Xubuntu yet? This is newcomer orientated and comes with xfce4 as standard desktop and fits on one CD. 

Besides that you can use every distri to install a customized system as long as this distribution allows a minimal installation you can add all the things you need later on top of it.

No, I actually meant aptitude, although you can also include attitude for some people, perhaps.



This would be a better analogy, I think, if I had been talking about the different file system naming conventions between Windows and Linux, which I was not.



The only problem here, based on my four years of using Linux, is that not all distributions use the same naming convention for these configuration files, nor do they all put them in the same place. This is yet another reason why I would argue that most potential Linux users (and even many current ones) GUI applications are important, if not essential. Note that I am not suggesting that the command line be done away or even that new users should not (eventually) be encouraged to learn a few things about using the command line. But not everyone wants to use CLI just to get their system running, nor should they have to - in my opinion.



I see this as more something you need to know to have greater or absolute control over your system, not as something you need to know the first time out. Again, though, that's just me. Granted, I've only been using Linux on my home machine for four years, so I don't know everything there is to know, nor do I have the inclination to try and do so. So far, I am able to use my machine for the things I want to do, but I had to have a lot of help in the beginning as things were not self-explanatory, not necessarily well-documented, or intuitive to the new Linux user. This has improved somewhat, but I think there is still room for progress. (Note that I am speaking generally here; I am not singling out Zenwalk or any other specific distribution.)



Granted, but many (perhaps most) computer users are coming to see computers in the same way as they see other appliances, as things they use every day and just expect to work. For many, the price of computing has dropped to the point where, if the system fails, they simply go buy a new one, as they would with a toaster and perhaps a refrigerator.



I don't think I was assessing blame, and I understand that Linux is more technical. However, I firmly believe that some of that technical nature can be made more transparent to everyday users. Note that I am not arguing it should necessarily be done away with or made inaccessible - if the user wants the added functionality.



No I haven't. I looked at it, and I decided it would take more work to get everything I needed set up. (And I think - I may be wrong - that it installed Open Office, which I did not want, but not AbiWord, which I did.) It was simply easier to keep the older version of Zenwalk I currently have installed. (Unlike many experienced Linux users, I no longer have the urge to experiment or keep several distributions loaded on my machine.)



This is similar to what I did when I installed Mandrake 8.0 and 8.2. Two hours or so later, I had a system that I then had to go in and try to tweak after another several hours of trying to find the information I needed to make those tweaks. This search becomes even more difficult if one of the things you need help with is establishing the internet connection you don't yet have. I recognize that much of this problem has to do with closed-source, so I am not assessing blame; I am simply stating a sometime fact of life for those who wish to install Linux.

I guess my final word on this is that I don't see making a distribution more user-friendly at the start (especially for newcomers) and allowing more advanced features/options for those more technical-minded to be mutually exclusive. But I sense that others do.

Actually, it doesn't install openoffice and Abiword is on the default install.  (This is not an advertisement for Xubuntu, though.  I'm just letting you know.  see: https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/xubuntu/de ... ments.html)

Important : yes, essential : no.

Microsoft Windows is more difficult to troubleshoot than Linux because nearly everything is graphical and it's often very difficult to understand the reason of a problem because you have to trust what the GUI did in the registry or in configuration files. Error messages are usually wrong, so you usually can't trust them to diagnose a problem.

Thus I don't think that the Windows registry is easier to understand than a text file. I believe that 0.1% of Windows users understand 0.1% of the registry.

So what's more difficult ?

Zenwalk won't do things like most other distributions because Linux distributions in general are becoming as complex as Microsoft Windows, and I really believe that's the wrong way to go.

Things should be polished and user friendly as long as it's not worst than editing a text file. btw few text files still need to be edited by hand on Zenwalk, and probably fewer in the future, but not at the cost of reliability and simplicity.

Complexity is always the best solution until you find a simpler one

Cheers

JP

Well, then, I guess I was wrong - as I suspected I might be. Not the first time, nor, I suspect, the last. Thanks.

Having had to look a time or two at the registry in Windows, I hope I did not imply that it is easier to understand than a text file, because I know that is not the case.



I don't think I was arguing that the Zenwalk approach should be eliminated (that wasn't really my intent), but I do think many new users need or would at least appreciate being able to use a more familiar approach for certain tasks - until they have their feet under them, so to speak. The sink or swim approach I sense from many Linux veterans and "experts" is what I have a problem with.

My idea is that the GUI approach to certain tasks allows new users to get going, the command line (when needed) then allows them to optimize their use and their experience. Maybe that's doable, maybe it's not.