Please save Pidgin

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Crocus
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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by Crocus » Thu May 17, 2007 3:39 pm

I dislike the way this troll go  :'( not a zen attitude from us (and in first from the pidgin devs).
But, at the end, they provide sources, so let's package a (slack) zenwalk package, and show us they're wrong.
Some of us have the same point of view, and wrote it. So, let's work, we have a 4.6 ISO to publish. Pidgin will be in it. After you will have some time to spend with this kind of troll ;)

So, let's back to our zen attitude, be positive and Zenwalk will grow higher and higher.

Only my 2 cents, not to drop oil on fire, but I'm a little disappointed.

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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by prfaasse » Thu May 17, 2007 5:10 pm

In the 'kopete' part of the discussion:

I build kopete as part of kdepim on a regular basis. I may well be my personal ignorance, but i've -till this very day- been unable to do anything sensible with it. I have read and re-read the kopete manual, and seem somehow unable to even get on the #zenwalk of freenode. It could be that my build of kopete is broken. I do not think so, because others seem to be able to work with it.. I build konversation too, and for a reason. In my -very personal- perception, kopete is a very unfriendly program to get to work. It may be easy to operate once 'set up', but i have never managed to get to that point.

I have also used Gaim, and found it similar in usability to konversation. Konversation is an irc-only Qt program...
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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by mhsc » Thu May 17, 2007 5:41 pm

Steve` wrote:Wake up guys. No OpenSource developer will ever refuse a bug report and will not fix a real bug because the submitter is using an unsupported distribution.


Wake up and small the roses Steve, they clearly stated that they hate Slackware and are fed up with its users. They're fed up with users due to so called "bug" reports which aren't proper reports.

In this case if they read something saying "OS: Slackware" they ARE likely to simply reply "Try ubuntu..." or something equally redundant. This is of course, if they do reply, and do not simply hit "delete".

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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by Steve` » Thu May 17, 2007 5:47 pm

mhsc wrote:Wake up and small the roses Steve, they clearly stated that they hate Slackware and are fed up with its users. They're fed up with users due to so called "bug" reports which aren't proper reports.


Who cares for that trolling shit? If there is a well reported bug they WILL care. They won't leave bugs in their software because a slackuser reported it. If the bug report is bad or may be caused due to the packager this may be different.
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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by mhsc » Thu May 17, 2007 5:49 pm

Now go back and read the next paragraph of my post ;)

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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by Steve` » Thu May 17, 2007 5:50 pm

Sorry, but the 'next paragraph' is nothing more than speculative FUD.
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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by mhsc » Thu May 17, 2007 5:54 pm

Steve` wrote:Sorry, but the 'next paragraph' is nothing more than speculative FUD.


Speculative: yes. But no more than you saying the exact opposite. ??? ;)

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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by Steve` » Thu May 17, 2007 5:57 pm

It's common sense that no developer leaves well known open bugs in his software without good reasons. A slackuser as bug reporter isn't a good reason.
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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by mhsc » Thu May 17, 2007 6:00 pm

Steve` wrote:It's common sense that no developer leaves well known open bugs in his software without good reasons. A slackuser as bug reporter isn't a good reason.


More speculation...

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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by Steve` » Thu May 17, 2007 6:34 pm

I'm sure you get the point. Really. Go on trolling, I'm away.
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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by skywatcher » Thu May 17, 2007 7:43 pm

Ciao. I use gaim/pidgin on a regular basis and I think is the best linux IM at the moment...
Anyway, I find the statements of the developers really absurd and I am still kinda "shocked".
I suggest to try to be zen and go on creating normal pidgin packages. In case we have any kind of problems due to developers being rude or not collaborating, well, then let's drop it immediately, ça va sans dire.

This is more about principles... in any case, whoever wants to compile the application will always be free to do it... linux is a free world!
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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by hyperion » Thu May 17, 2007 9:50 pm

pidgin developers are in a monopoly situation : their application is the only GTK multiprotocol IM client. That's why they are so arrogant.

I sent them a fair offer to maintain a .tgz package : for the moment they ignore me.
Patrick Volkerding sent them several mails asking to remove the offensive words from their Wiki : they ignored him until he wrote the Slackware changelog saying that Pidgin will be dropped from Slackware.

Personally I really don't care about supporting commercial or semi-commercial IM services like Microsoft Network or Yahoo. The only reason this kind of feature is kept in Zenwalk is because many users want it.

I hope that they will answer to my mail so that we can begin a good collaboration by maintaining a clean and up to date Pidgin .tgz package for the Slackware community. I would really love to see how they would react if Ayttm-gtk2 was finished, for exemple... not the same situation, obviously.

Else Pidgin (or anything else they decide to call this strange application with obscure menus) will probably go to extra or Linuxpackages.net.

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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by Monky5 » Thu May 17, 2007 10:25 pm

hi all, as said before, maybe pidgin will be nice for zenwalk 4.6, but what about giving a chance to another program?
i was thinking in Gajim http://www.gajim.org/ wich uses PyGTK or some stuff that i thik is already in zenwalk, with some jabber program like this one, you only need to get a jabber account and transport your msn, yahoo, icq or another messaging accounts, furthermore, i thik ussing jabber wich uses an open protocol fits better with GNU/Linux philosophy.

well, just my opinion :)

edit:
gajim in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gajim
comparision of IM's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_instant_messaging_clients
Last edited by Monky5 on Thu May 17, 2007 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by rhys_rhaven » Thu May 17, 2007 11:14 pm

A small discussion from #pidgin on irc.freenode.net. Skimming is quite acceptable. :)

are there any main developers here?
rhys: if you have a question, ask it
<-- jkiff has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
a matter of Zenwalk dropping support for Pidgin, due to the comments made about slackware. Its gotten away from being mere revenge. The main devs want to maintain offical packages for it, but they wont unless they know that it will be a supported application bugfix wise for slackware.
what do you want us to do about that?
yes, Volkerding threw a tantrum, but there's nothing we can do about that
Pat may do what he will. he runs slackware, but JP Guillemin runs Zenwalk.
so what is your question?
http://support.zenwalk.org/index.php/topic,8223.0.html
first post. I just want to know is it possible that Pidgin devs would at least work with the offical maintainers of Zenwalk.
What is there for us to do?
no, we do *not* endorse packages not built by us
We aren't going to distribute their packages.
rhys: we have never refused to work with any maintainers who have approached us
When zenwalk users have issues they should go to zenwalk people, the same as any other distribution.
deryni, what about bug reports?
If they are bugs in pidgin they are bugs in pidgin.
Most upstream projects don't make packages for any distro.
They should get reported to you and forwarded to us.
I don't even understand what that post says
it's incoherent
Same as everyone else does.
Projects don't support distributions, that's the wrong direction.
amen
or Fedora or debian
reply #6 on that thread is perfectly logical
Which is the same as we do for slackware by the way when confronted with users who have clue.
Yeah, #6 understood.
I have no idea where people seem to have gotten the idea that we think you can't build applications coherently on slackware.
I *love* it that some lame troll found a statement and used it out of context and blew it out of proportion, and now we have to hear about it CONSTANTLY
deryni, the offical post on the pidgin wiki.
rhys: It didn't say that. Go read it.
which rants about no dep checking in slackware.
Even the original.
rhys: it says we can't *support* such behavior, because we have no way to know what the user has on their system, or why it isn't working
rhys: would you expect us to support LFS?
where do you draw the line?
where pidgin even now suggests not compiling from source on slackware. Suggesting not to and not supporting are two different things
*blink*
rhys: we suggest that for *every* distribution
if a Debian user comes in here ,we tell them to use the official .deb
We suggest *always* using distro provided packages.
Even when those don't actually exist.
alright. Sufficient. Im simply trying to get some pidgin input to save it in Zenwalk. Im not trying to cause any trouble.


From my discussion with some of the Pidgin devs, their dislike of Slackware is obvious. They simply have a problem with wasting time supporting Slackware users (Read inexperience packagers/ people who shouldn't be compiling) more than anyone else due to dependency problems, etc. Its just a matter of Slackware users having to compile from source, so there happens to be more of them with problems than places like Ubuntu or Fedora.

That said, whatever there ignorance of opinion, we are treated the same as all other distros. Pidgin works fine for us, and hasn't broken yet. --IF-- it does, and they decide not to support it, we can deal with that then. Until then it should stay in the ISO. Please JP, alot of users like it and it fills a nice niche.

Rhys

PS. I like jabber as well and don't like pidgin devs. Users first though. 
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Re: Please save Pidgin

Post by mhsc » Thu May 17, 2007 11:44 pm

rhys: It didn't say that. Go read it.

"We have no developers using Slack, and furthermore, several of us                                                                                                                        actively dislike that distribution for its history of broken installs,                                                                                                                            as well as for its non-existant package management.  You cannot create                                                                                                                            true packages for Slack."

Anyway, I still think we should try and maintain it, even if the Pidgin developers hate Slackware. If you read what they said carefully, they say that "if a user finds a bug, it should be reported to you [Zenwalk Devs] and reported to us [Pidgin Devs]" which implies they will monitor our bug reports. Which is all we needed to know  :)

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